How should the Tray work? Have your say

[Paul Barrett]

A few of us have been having some issues with the tray lately, and I have been discussing my own set of tray issues with Daria. We decided we need people to have their say on how the tray should work.

 

I am a relatively new Daminion addict and an even more recent user of the tray. Here's my 2¢.

 

1. The tray should be nothing more than an alternative way to the thumbnail view of viewing images.
2. The Thumbnail view contents are governed by which folders and tags are selected, and disappear when those tags are deselected
3. The Tray contents are governed only by what the user drags into it, and persist regardless of what happens in the thumbnail view, and also across sessions
4. Apart from those differences, the tray should provide the user with the same functionality as the thumbnail view. When you select an image or group of images you should be able to do exactly what you can do to images in the main window.

 

But that's just my view. What do you think?

 

Paul

[lintujuh]

Hi!

 

I agree with you Paul.

 

Unfortunately currently there are some technical limitations and you cannot do everything in the tray that you can do in the thumbnail view. I haven't been using the tray as I'm not sure, can I accomplish what I want to do in the tray.

 

-Juha

[Uwe]

Hello,

this is my opinion.

 

1. The tray should be nothing more than an alternative way to the thumbnail view of viewing images.

This is to much for me. I don't need a "second" Thumbnail Window. For me the Tray is just a place on the screen to keep selected items for a certain time until I don't need them there. E.g. when I create a new page of a photobook I select the items for this page in the Thumbnail Window and insert them to the Tray. If the page is ready the items were removed from the Tray and the items of the next page will be selected and draged to the Tray.

Or if I create a new video I put the video and the audio items to the Tray until the final video saved on disc.

 

2. The Thumbnail view contents are governed by which folders and tags are selected, and disappear when those tags are deselected

yes

 

3. The Tray contents are governed only by what the user drags into it, and persist regardless of what happens in the thumbnail view, and also across sessions

yes, and I would like to have an option (like a checkbox) in the header of the Tray: If I select an item in the Tray the view in the Thumbnail Window should be focussed on the same item. In this case the Tray has an impact on the Thumbnail Window.

 

4. Apart from those differences, the tray should provide the user with the same functionality as the thumbnail view. When you select an image or group of images you should be able to do exactly what you can do to images in the main window.

Maybe not exacly the same. How do we want to handle groups/linked items in the Tray? I don't want to "overload" the Tray with function already existing in the Thumbnail, Window.

BUT I would like to have the same Sort option for items in the Tray as already existing in the Thumbnail Window. This is my number one on the wishlist for the Tray.

 

AND - what will be the future? Do we want to have a desktop client and a web client? I guess the future development UI will be the web client from my point of view. How does the Tray work there? It's not yet there in the web client.

 

Regards, Uwe

[WilfriedB]

If I select an item in the Tray the view in the Thumbnail Window should be focussed on the same item. In this case the Tray has an impact on the Thumbnail Window.

I agree with Uwe, the lack of this capability is the most important inhibitor for smooth working with the tray. Having a good solution for that, would make obsolete Paul's request #4 in my opinion.

 

However, there is also to special case to consider, namely the situation when the Thumbnail Window does not contain the item selected in the tray. My current workaround for that, is to open the Properties Window, select one of the item's properties, such as Creation Datetime, Folders or other, right click it and then select option "Select xxx in the tag tree." For now, a new Thumbnail "view" appears, but depending on the number of items in there, I have to scroll a lot. This becomes extremely nasty when you forgot you did "hide" that item in a group. (A reason for me to give with the concept of grouping)

 

It would be great, if the item in the tray would come in focus immediately in the Thumbnail Window either be clicking a a button in the tray or when opening a new Thumbnail Window window, so I can perform all other actions quickly.

[Paul Barrett]

So, the idea is that the tray image is paired with it's parent in the thumbnail view so that clicking on one (or more) images in the tray immediately brings the paired item(s) into view in the thumbnail view just as they would if those same items shared a keyword unique to the images?

 

And then you could use the thumbnail view to carry out the actions you wanted. That works for me.

 

But you're right, there would need to be a toggle button to enable/disable the cut down thumbnail view so that we can continue to use the normal thumbnail view to move around the library, perhaps stopping to add other items to the tray. Should another button be added to the summary row at the bottom of the thumbnail screen.

 

That made me think that there is another way of conceptualising the tray and thumbnail views. Thumbnail = Action Centric, tray = Display Centric

 

Display Centric view lets us decide what items we want to work on, Action Centric view lets us work on them. So rather than getting both these areas to be the same, we make sure each fulfills its role properly. Display v Act

 

In that way of looking at them, we would simplify things so that rather than getting the right click action on tray items to be the same as thumbnail, we remove all actions from the tray items and ONLY have actions on the thumbnail items. A right click option in the tray's background area provides one option:

 

• Clear Tray

 

and a right click on an image in the tray provides a single option:

 

• Remove from Tray.

 

I would also suggest that, for consistency, just as you can click and drag an item from the thumbnail view onto the tray to add it, you should be able to click and drag an item from the tray to the thumbnail view to remove it from the tray.

 

Does that meet all our requirements?

 

I have tried to summarise how all of this would work in the attached screen shot:

 

 

 

All of this is just an attempt to show what might be possible based on the suggestions that others have made. If it's a bad idea that's fine. I'm just trying to relate some of the ideas to what the screens might look like.

 

 

Regards

 

Paul

[WilfriedB]

Thumbnail = Action Centric, tray = Display Centric

I like this idea!

 

In my opinion, the current implementation is neither fish nor meat and asks for trouble. For those actions, which do work from both - the tray and the thumbnail window - I am never really sure on which one they are performed.

[Paul Barrett]

Thinking about the idea of a Thumbnail view content to mirror the tray contents, as illustrated in the previous image, I realised there are a couple (maybe more) of issues, see next image.

 

 

 

What other issues might there be?

 

 

Regards

 

 

 

Paul

[WilfriedB]

... the idea of a Thumbnail view content to mirror the tray contents ...

Not sure, it makes sense to "mirror" the tray contents. Usually the items in the tray are result of several different searches, therefore they are never all present in a single Thumbnail window.

 

My idea was this:

• If the selected tray item is part of the current search, there should be a way to bring it in focus immediately without having to scroll through all thumbnails
• If the selected tray item is currently not part of the Thumbnail window, a new search should be performed. For the sake of simplicity, it would be enough to show only this single item in the Thumbnail window.

[Paul Barrett]

Not sure, it makes sense to "mirror" the tray contents. Usually the items in the tray are result of several different searches, therefore they are never all present in a single Thumbnail window.

 

My idea was this:

• If the selected tray item is part of the current search, there should be a way to bring it in focus immediately without having to scroll through all thumbnails
• If the selected tray item is currently not part of the Thumbnail window, a new search should be performed. For the sake of simplicity, it would be enough to show only this single item in the Thumbnail window.

I see exactly what you mean Wilfried, I overlooked the search results angle

 

I have some questions:

1. How should the app handle your use case when there are multiple items in the tray that are also in the search results? Presumably you'd want both those to be in focus in the thumbnail window (TW)? So then you would have a subset of the tray contents and the search results in the TW
2. Taking that to it's logical conclusion, suppose the tray had lots of items in it, say 30, and your 2 search results were not on the same visible section of the tray, what then? Should the tray focus on just those two and exclude the rest, for now?
3. If it did so we'd need a way of indicating the tray was in subset mode, maybe by pushing the infocus items to the front of the list and having dimmed out thumbnails of the rest of the contents so you have a visual reminder that the tray has other contents. And clicking on any of the dimmed images restores the tray to normal. Would that work for you?
4. Would a similar kind of facility be useful for the query results? That is, would you want to work on other images in the search results outside of the ones that were in the tray?

Your use case differs from mine. I want to be able to work on everything in the tray, so having just those items in the TW regardless of how they are sourced is needed.

 

Therefore I think we need the app to deal with both use cases.

[WilfriedB]

1. How should the app handle your use case when there are multiple items in the tray that are also in the search results? Presumably you'd want both those to be in focus in the thumbnail window (TW)? So then you would have a subset of the tray contents and the search results in the TW

It seems, I was not clear enough. I mean only one selected item in the tray. It could be helpful for the user to allow also multiple selected items (including Select All), but I am afraid, the implementation would be much more complicated. From my perspective, a single selected item in the tray would be sufficient and it would be my responsibility to choose appropriate search and sort criteria in case I want to work on multiple items at once, so the selection could be extended to the neighbors in the Thumbnail Window before applying any changes.

 

2. Taking that to it's logical conclusion, suppose the tray had lots of items in it, say 30, and your 2 search results were not on the same visible section of the tray, what then? Should the tray focus on just those two and exclude the rest, for now?

Same as above, my intention is mainly to work on a small subset of the tray at a time.

 

3. If it did so we'd need a way of indicating the tray was in subset mode, maybe by pushing the infocus items to the front of the list and having dimmed out thumbnails of the rest of the contents so you have a visual reminder that the tray has other contents. And clicking on any of the dimmed images restores the tray to normal. Would that work for you?

This could be done as it is now: Selecting an item with single click and it shows the white square frame.

 

4. Would a similar kind of facility be useful for the query results? That is, would you want to work on other images in the search results outside of the ones that were in the tray?

To work with, I would only use the items in the Thumbnail Window same we do today. The tray should only be used to bring a certain item in focus and select it. Then the selection in the Thumbnail Window could be kept, extended or other items selected. At that point the tray does not matter anymore.

[Paul Barrett]

It seems, I was not clear enough.

 

No Wilfried you were very clear. It was me. :) I was extending your use case to see how far it might go. It's the latent product manager in me.:(

 

Paul

 

 

 

[WilfriedB]

It's the latent product manager in me.:(

... and the former red-book author in me

[Daria Kotilainen]

Hello Paul, Uwe, Juha and Wilfried,

 

thank you a lot guys for expressing your opinion! However, I personaly do have some questions to all of you. I'm sorry in advance if I just wasn't able to follow your shared train of thoughts but I need to comletely understand everything you suggest to be able to justify the changes for Alex and other developers.

 

Paul, I cannot agree with your first suggestion

The tray should be nothing more than an alternative way to the thumbnail view of viewing images.

and share Uwe's opinion at this point. I'm a user of Daminion myself and would hardly need two places to do a set of the same actions with files. Initially the tray was intended to be a place where you put file(s) to be then added into a single collection or processed lately. I believe tray's current functionality should be improved but not extended too much.

 

Could you please explain me what you mean by #2

The Thumbnail view contents are governed by which folders and tags are selected, and disappear when those tags are deselected

? I see that Uwe understands this but I, unfortunately, don't. Doesn't it work this way now?

 

 

Guys, how do you like the idea of a shortcut allowing to align the view in the Tray and in the thumbnail window? Say, it will be ALT+SMTH

If one selects an item in the Tray and clicks ALT+SMTH, a new search is performed and the item is displayed in the Thumbnail view either as a single search result, or ... Or what? I lack the ideas for this alternative. Should the contents of this item's folder be displayed?

This would probably work for a single item only.

 

So, I can say I basically agree with Wilfried's suggestion:

1.If the selected tray item is part of the current search, there should be a way to bring it in focus immediately without having to scroll through all thumbnails

2.If the selected tray item is currently not part of the Thumbnail window, a new search should be performed. For the sake of simplicity, it would be enough to show only this single item in the Thumbnail window.

 

And the shortcut would be probably a solution for the second part. But wouldn't a new user be confused if he clicks an item in the tray hoping to see the same item focused in the thumbnail view and hothing happens because the trayed item is not a part of the current search? How could he instantly know he should use the shortcut or - I don't know - do something else to display that trayed item in the thumbnail view? I believe this should be consistent and transparent for each user.

 

Ok, I know I didn't comment every suggestion and, frankly, I feel a bit puzzeled now :D

 

Daria

[Daria Kotilainen]

And my personal thumb-down for the tray is because if I select an image (A) in the tray and then select an image (B) in thumbnail view, they are both selected, which is kind of OK. But what is not OK is that the properties panel sticks to the last selected image of these two. So if I now click the image (A) again, the properties panel will still show the properties of the image B. A couple of times I started to tag a wrong image (thought I was tagging A, while was tagging B) and then wondered why an image had tags unrelated to its contents. This issue is registered, but until it's fixed, I will use the Tray only for the purpose of creating collections.

 

Daria

[WilfriedB]

a shortcut allowing to align the view in the Tray and in the thumbnail window?

This is exactly what I meant. However, it is not always necessary to perform new search. If the current search result already contains that item, it should only be brought it in focus. What I mean by "bring in focus" is: If the number of items in the result set is bigger than the size of the window can show and the selected item is not visible, the window should be moved, so the user can see it being marked as selected (with the white frame around the thumbnail).

 

In general this applies also independently of whether the tray was used or not. In many cases when the result set is quite big, I have difficulties to locate the selected item - either because it was previously selected in a another view (e.g. I search by date, select an item and start a new search based on one of its tags or its folder) or when I was scrolling several pages and and want to return quickly to the selected item.

 

Another example: I decrease the size of the thumbnails as much as possible, in order to scroll and visiually search a specific image. Once I found it, I select it and increase the size again. At this point, it usually disappears from the window and I have to scroll again.

 

P.S. Not sure what SMTH means, I guess you mean a still to be decided key following the Alt-key ...?

 

But wouldn't a new user be confused if he clicks an item in the tray hoping to see the same item focused in the thumbnail view and nothing happens because the trayed item is not a part of the current search?

Currently the confusion is much bigger in I my opinion. When you work with tray and the thumbnail window concurrently, you can click (i.e. "select") one or more items in either one. Both are marked with a white frame, but I am never sure which is the active one, i.e. to which one will any changes be applied. One solution would be to the change the color of that frame (e.g. grey) for the one which cannot be changed this time.

[WilfriedB]

And my personal thumb-down for the tray is because if I select an image (A) in the tray and then select an image (B) in thumbnail view, they are both selected, which is kind of OK. But what is not OK is that the properties panel sticks to the last selected image of these two. So if I now click the image (A) again, the properties panel will still show the properties of the image B. A couple of times I started to tag a wrong image (thought I was tagging A, while was tagging B) and then wondered why an image had tags unrelated to its contents.

Thanks Daria, I didn't see this before writing my last response. This is exactly my issue too!

[Paul Barrett]

Thanks Daria, I didn't see this before writing my last response. This is exactly my issue too!

 

Blimey, there are so many questions flying around I hardly know where to start!

 

But to this last point, I think that aptly sums up the problem. We can do some very similar things in both views. If, however, the tray was only a To Do list but the actual actions were only carried out in the thumbnail view, and the properties panel only reacted to what was selected in the thumbnail view, wouldn't that solve many of these problems.

 

I think that my use case is VERY different from Wilfried's. And they are both valid uses that need to be cared for.

 

Rightly or wrongly, a To-Do list is exactly how I think of the tray. I drop items in there for later review and action - could be days later. The tray contents are the result of eyeballing the thumbnail view. I may select two items from the same thumbnail view that could be adjacent or very far apart. I may select one item from one folder, change to another folder and select another item that needs similar treatment to the other.. I may even have discovered identical images in separate folders that I need to investigate.

 

So the tray content is, from a system perspective, completely random and bears no relation to anything that normally appears in the thumbnail view.

 

Now, I decide it's time to work on the tray content.

 

If I go into the tray ad click on grey space i would be very happy if the thumbnail view window emptied.

 

What I would like to happen is that the items I highlight in the tray, immediately come into focus in the thumbnail view so that I can action them in the thumbnail view. Way back in this thread I suggested that all the actions in the thumbnail view should be available in the tray, but I have changed my mind.. I now suggest the absolute reverse of that, that there should be no actions in the tray at all except selecting items and removing them from the tray.

 

So that's my use case, in a nutshell. And I think it would help eliminate Daria's issue about the wrong properties.

 

We still need to consider Wilfried's use case but I'll come to that later

 

- Paul

 

 

 

 

[Paul Barrett]

Paul> I can't figure out how this multi-quote thing works so I am going to have to this the hard way

 

Daria> Paul, I cannot agree with your first suggestion...

 

Paul>

The tray should be nothing more than an alternative way to the thumbnail view of viewing images.

Daria> ..and share Uwe's opinion at this point. I'm a user of Daminion myself and would hardly need two places to do a set of the same actions with files. Initially the tray was intended to be a place where you put file(s) to be then added into a single collection or processed lately. I believe tray's current functionality should be improved but not extended too much.

Paul > Yes, as stated elsewhere I now see that was a bad idea. I have swung 180 degrees, and believe the tray should be stripped of all action functionality so that it's nothing more than a To-Do List.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Daria> Could you please explain me what you mean by #2

Paul> 2.

The Thumbnail view contents are governed by which folders and tags are selected, and disappear when those tags are deselected

?

Daria> I see that Uwe understands this but I, unfortunately, don't. Doesn't it work this way now?

 

Paul > It was meant as a statement of fact. Yes, that is how it works now. I was trying (badly?) to make the distinction between what governs the content of the thumbnail view compared to the tray

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Daria> Guys, how do you like the idea of a shortcut allowing to align the view in the Tray and in the thumbnail window? Say, it will be ALT+SMTH

Paul> Not a lot. Beyond the simple system options such as Ctrl + S, C, V, P, I, A and Alt+Tab I almost never use KB shortcuts. I am a graphical focussed person. Sorry but I think that as this is a GUI you must start with a clickable item and then add a shortcut for those that want it,

Daria> If one selects an item in the Tray and clicks ALT+SMTH, a new search is performed and the item is displayed in the Thumbnail view either as a single search result,

 

Paul> I agree with the concept but would edit that idea as follows:

If one selects an item in the Tray

and clicks

ALT+SMTH

, a new search is performed

the item is displayed in the Thumbnail view

either as a single search result,

Daria> or ... Or what? I lack the ideas for this alternative. Should the contents of this item's folder be displayed?

 

Paul> In my use case, no, definitely not

 

 

 

Daria> This would probably work for a single item only.

 

Paul> In my use case I see it working for all selected items regardless of their location. How does that differ from displaying all images for one person from multiple locations?

 

Daria> So, I can say I basically agree with Wilfried's suggestion:

 

Wilfried> 1.If the selected tray item is part of the current search, there should be a way to bring it in focus immediately without having to scroll through all thumbnails.

Paul> I agree too. In my use case I only want to see that single item in the thumbnail window. Wilfried do you want to see the other items too, but with the one selected in the tray in focus (and highlighted?) in the thumbnail window?

Wilfried> 2.If the selected tray item is currently not part of the Thumbnail window, a new search should be performed. For the sake of simplicity, it would be enough to show only this single item in the Thumbnail window.

Paul> Again, I agree. The mechanism used to get the images into the window is up to someone else to figure out. But doesn't this concept also apply when multiple images are selected in the tray?

 

Daria> And the shortcut would be probably a solution for the second part. But wouldn't a new user be confused if he clicks an item in the tray hoping to see the same item focused in the thumbnail view and nothing happens because the trayed item is not a part of the current search?

Paul> I agree, he would. You have just described my confusion. :) Which is why I suggest that selected items appear and the rest of the search results are suppressed

What I think Wilfried might need is a way to get back to the previous search results when he's done with the selected items? But I may have misinterpreted what he said.

 

Daria> How could he instantly know he should use the shortcut or - I don't know - do something else to display that trayed item in the thumbnail view? I believe this should be consistent and transparent for each user.

Paul> Agreed and I thought my way would handle that. But it's also true that I may be totally missing something here. I think we agree more than disagree on this?

I think part of the problem is that it is difficult to visualise this. I would be happy to mock up a screen flow if it would help clarify things?

Phew! I hope that all makes sense!

- Paul

 

[WilfriedB]

I can't figure out how this multi-quote thing works so I am going to have to this the hard way

Same here! Getting around by copying/pasting start/end "quote" tags. (all between the squared brackets)

 

But doesn't this concept also apply when multiple images are selected in the tray?

It should basically work, but it might become more complicated. For me, it would be sufficient for a single image.

 

Wilfried do you want to see the other items too, but with the one selected in the tray in focus (and highlighted?) in the thumbnail window?

Yes, because in many cases, I am interested in other images in the "neighborhood" of the one, I selected in the tray. For example, I would search all pictures made on the same day and look for those made shortly before or after the one in the tray.

[Paul Barrett]

OK so we need two thumbnail view behaviours

 

1. Where there are query results in the window and Wilfried wants all the query results to remain in the thumbnail view and when an item is selected in the tray, the same image to be highlighted in the thumbnail view and brought into focus, if it's in the query results

 

2. Where the tray is populated with images and selecting one or more brings just those items into view for Paul

 

Isn't that 'just' a 'behaviour' toggle, similar to those we already have for list view etc but whereas the list view is just a different view on to the same content, this one applies different content filters to the two views?

 

This toggle would only be active if there were items in the tray

 

Does that work?

 

- Paul

[Uwe]

Hello,

 

The content of the Thumbnail Window is the result of a current search (saved search, click on (a) folder(s)...).

The items in the Tray are a selection of items of the current search or previous searches. The items (or part of them) of a previous search are not in the Thumbnail Window anymore.

The question is: what do I want to do with the items in the Tray and what do they are representing?

Just my point of view (maybe a black and white view) and to restricted:

1. Tag assignment - no, it's already done or has to be done in the Thumbnail Window

2. Remove/delete from catatog/disc - no, it's already done or has to be done in the Thumbnail Window

...

3. Preselection of items to be used in a project (presentation, slide show, book, documentation, web page, quotation, etc.) - yes

Which functions should be possible with items in the Tray?

3.1 Compare items to decide which one will be used in the project - yes

3.2 Call external editor (Photoshop, Gimp, Affinity Photo etc) - yes

3.3 Version Control - yes - because it belongs to the call of an external editor

3.4 Remove from Tray - yes

 

4. And now there are at least two ways of working:

4.1 Interaction with the Thumbnail Window - yes. If (an) item(s) in the Tray is/are selected, a new search has to be generated automatically in the backgound to show this/these item(s) in the Thumbnail Window.

It's comparable to a click on an item in the Tray or the selection of more than one item.

Then one can switch to the Thumbnail Window and can use the actions available for items in the Thumbnail Window

4.2 Put items into a Collection. One can select the collection(s) and get its/their item(s) in the Thumbnail Window. Now one can use the actions available for items in the Thumbnail Window.

 

Regards, Uwe

[WilfriedB]

Uwe, I agree with all your points, except for this one:

4.1 .... a new search has to be generated automatically in the background to show this/these item(s) in the Thumbnail Window.

To generate a new search automatically could be one solution, but I want to have control over the search, because there are several options: For example you could search all items of the same date as the selected tray member, or the in the same folder, or having the same tag(s) ... or simply choosing one saved search.

 

So my suggestion is:

If the selected tray item is already member of the result set of the current search, it should only be brought in focus, i.e. being selected and visible in the window, otherwise, if it is not member of the result set, a new search could be generated automatically resulting only in this single item or, if multiple items were selected, only those.

[Paul Barrett]

Which functions should be possible with items in the Tray?

3.1 Compare items to decide which one will be used in the project - yes

3.2 Call external editor (Photoshop, Gimp, Affinity Photo etc) - yes

3.3 Version Control - yes - because it belongs to the call of an external editor

3.4 Remove from Tray - yes

 

That's a statement of fact, yes? You can do all that in the tray today? But of we jump ahead to 4.1, if the tray items are visible in the thumbnail window you could do all those things (except 'remove from tray') in the thumbnail window. So are you suggesting we retain those 4 functions in the tray?

 

4.2 Put items into a Collection. One can select the collection(s) and get its/their item(s) in the Thumbnail Window. Now one can use the actions available for items in the Thumbnail Window.

Nice, so you could return to a tray as it was in the past.

 

That would work for me so long as the collection generation and maintenance was automated. I don't want my workflow to be interrupted by user interactions to name / save collections. They could be auto named "Tray "<yyyy-mm-dd HH:MM:SS.

 

How many should be kept? A day's, week's...?

 

And what happens if you add or remove tray items after a collection has been created? Does each edit create a new collection?

 

- Paul

[Paul Barrett]

So my suggestion is:

If the selected tray item is already member of the result set of the current search, it should only be brought in focus, i.e. being selected and visible in the window, otherwise, if it is not member of the result set, a new search could be generated automatically resulting only in this single item or, if multiple items were selected, only those.

 

Yep that works for me

 

- Paul

 

 

 

[WilfriedB]

Nice, so you could return to a tray as it was in the past.

In case you didn't know yet Paul, this already works today:

Either right mouse click on one or more tray items and select "Put Items into Collection" to place the selected items into a collection or click the Settings button on the upper right and click "Put Items into Collection" to put the entire tray into a collection.

However, you have to manually type the name of the collection (otherwise, you could also drag and drop). If he collection already exists and is not empty, the tray members are added.