Externally added keywords not being read

[kingsfan]

Hi,

I don't know when this changed, but with build 650 and even 597, any keywords added to my .CR2 files using either GeoSetter or ExifToolGUI are not being read by Daminion and thus those keywords are not being populated in the catalog.

 

I don't have this issue with .JPG files.

 

Both these external programs appear to write to XMP-dc:Subject. The only keywords being read into the catalog are those added by Daminion itself. I hope this is a bug you can fix soon.

 

Upon further examination, it appears that images that were cataloged with Damionion when it was using the XMPToolkit ver. 8.60 are being read into the catalog, whereas images read into catalog using XMPToolit ver. 8.85 (in later versions of Daminion) are not reading the externally added tags at all. I gathered this data using the "Show all Metadata" command for the images in question.

 

Thanks.

[Murat]

What version of ExifTool is used by GeoSetter and ExifToolGui? Could you please send me a CR2 file that was updated by these tools?

[kingsfan]

What version of ExifTool is used by GeoSetter and ExifToolGui? Could you please send me a CR2 file that was updated by these tools?

 

I have sent mail to [email protected] with a link to a 22MB CR2 file.

 

Both tools are using ver. 9.03 (latest) of ExifTool. I believe the issue is related to the XMPToolkit version as I suggested in my original post. The issue is that Daminion's "Read Metadata" command recognizes all the keywords in the XMP:dc-Subject tag but the Daminion UI does not. It recognizes only what has been entered by Daminion itself.

 

Thanks for looking into this.

[Murat]

Thanks for the screenshot and image.

 

Daminion Keyword Tag is mapped to a set of metadata fields. As you can see from this document:

https://daminion.net/user-forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=65

 

Dc:subject has the second priority when reading keywords from image metadata. While saving tags into the file Daminion updates all metadata fields from this list and thus read them correctly.

 

GeoSetter updates only one metadata field while other ones leave unchanged.

 

We'll change Daminion mapping list on the next minor version to bring dc:subject to the top of the mapping list.

[kingsfan]

Thanks for the screenshot and image.

 

Daminion Keyword Tag is mapped to a set of metadata fields. As you can see from this document:

https://daminion.net/user-forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=65

 

Dc:subject has the second priority when reading keywords from image metadata. While saving tags into the file Daminion updates all metadata fields from this list and thus read them correctly.

 

GeoSetter updates only one metadata field while other ones leave unchanged.

 

We'll change Daminion mapping list on the next minor version to bring dc:subject to the top of the mapping list.

 

Thanks for the quick response. I am happy to test an interim build if possible.

[Murat]

Fixed in 657 build.

[kingsfan]

Fixed in 657 build.

Thanks. Is it available to test?

[Uwe]

Hi kingsfan,

 

the build 664 is already available. Use this one to test.

 

Regards, Uwe

[kingsfan]

Hi kingsfan,

 

the build 664 is already available. Use this one to test.

 

Regards, Uwe

Clicking on the download button points me to build 650 and nothing later at https://daminion.net/download

[Uwe]

Hi kingsfan,

 

you have to download the newest beta build from the forum:

 

https://daminion.net/user-forum/index.php?/forum/4-announcements/

 

Regards, Uwe

[kingsfan]

Hi kingsfan,

 

you have to download the newest beta build from the forum:

 

https://daminion.net/user-forum/index.php?/forum/4-announcements/

 

Regards, Uwe

Ah :-). Thanks.

[Murat]

Sorry for the inconvenience, but we need to revert moving XMP dc:subject to the top of keywords mapping list. The problem is because Adobe Lightroom flattens keywords while writing keywords into the dc:subject, and preserve hierarchical info in XMP lr:HierarchicalSubject field.

 

This leads to a problem when hierarchical keywords info is completely losing while importing images from LR. I don't know why Adobe creates metadata standards and then ignores them. This is a subject for a separate blog post and discussion.

 

As Uwe suggested, we can add an ability to edit an xml file to change the metadata mapping order, but it's for advanced users and is not obvious for new users.

[kingsfan]

Sorry for the inconvenience, but we need to revert moving XMP dc:subject to the top of keywords mapping list. The problem is because Adobe Lightroom flattens keywords while writing keywords into the dc:subject, and preserve hierarchical info in XMP lr:HierarchicalSubject field.

 

This leads to a problem when hierarchical keywords info is completely losing while importing images from LR. I don't know why Adobe creates metadata standards and then ignores them. This is a subject for a separate blog post and discussion.

 

As Uwe suggested, we can add an ability to edit an xml file to change the metadata mapping order, but it's for advanced users and is not obvious for new users.

So are both LightRoom and GeoSetter not following the standards but each in a diferent way? I use CaptureOne and not LightRoom for just RAW processing, so not having this functionality will be a hard one to overcome.

 

Additionally, the issue will be that Daminion's "Read Metadata" command recognizes all the keywords in the XMP:dc-Subject tag but the Daminion UI does not.

 

Can you share the way I can edit the XML mapping and the build on which I can try this? Thanks.

[Murat]

So are both LightRoom and GeoSetter not following the standards but each in a diferent way?

 

Adobe follows MWG specification that requires to flatten all hierarchical

path elements, which means that each hierarchy node needs to be stored as a separate keyword entry to XMP dc:subject. And they uses it's own "lr:HierarchicalSubject" XMP metadata fields to store hierarchical keywords.

 

GeoSetter doesn't care about XMP scheme from LR developers.

 

To be honest I don't understand why MWG creators decided to avoid storing hierarchical info in XMP dc:subject, and instead suggested to store Hierarchical info in a new, complex MWG specifiation. Why make things complex when it can be simple? And why standards are changes so quickly? Using "|" delimiter to separate hierarchy levels can add support for hierarchies in all existing XMP fields, without breaking the existing specification.

 

Anyway the main problem here is because two different software (GeoSetter and LR) doesn't understand each other, in spite the fact that both uses XMP to write metadata.

 

 

I use CaptureOne and not LightRoom for just RAW processing, so not having this functionality will be a hard one to overcome.

 

There is no way within XMP to determine which one of XMP keywords are changed the most recently. Mapping Rules are not loaded from an XML file yet (it was just an idea for future implementations). But this might be the only way to change the mapping priority in Daminion in the future.

 

If you don't plan to use LR anymore, you can consider removal of all XMP lr:HierarchicalSubject info from your images by ExifTool:

 

exiftool -lr:HierarchicalSubject= DIR

 

Additionally, the issue will be that Daminion's "Read Metadata" command recognizes all the keywords in the XMP:dc-Subject tag but the Daminion UI does not.

 

Nope, Daminion 666 build will try to import lr:hierarchicalSubject before, and then proceed with dc:Subject if lr:hierarchicalSubject field is empty or doesn't exist.

[kingsfan]

If you don't plan to use LR anymore, you can consider removal of all XMP lr:HierarchicalSubject info from your images by ExifTool:

 

exiftool -lr:HierarchicalSubject= DIR

 

 

Nope, Daminion 666 build will try to import lr:hierarchicalSubject before, and then proceed with dc:Subject if lr:hierarchicalSubject field is empty or doesn't exist.

 

Daminion still writes keywords first into lr:hierarchicalSubject, correct? So any keywords I add using Daminion are written to that tag and not to dc:Subject, correct?

 

If so, will removing lr:HierarchicalSubject using exiftool not result in my newly added keyword not showing up any more? To give you an example of my workflow -

 

1. 
    
   
2. Import GPS data for folder using GPX import in Geosetter. This saves the location and GPS data into dc:Subject.
   
3. Add folder into Daminion and add more keywords using Daminion
   

.

 

Now I have the original issue where the location information added by Geosetter is not showing in the Daminion UI and not populated in the catalog for search purposes.

 

I hope this explains the problem. If removing lr:HierarchicalSubject helps retain the keywords from Geosetter and also continues to retain the Daminon added keywords I am willing to incorporate that into my workflow.

 

What do you suggest? :-) Thanks.

[Uwe]

Hi kingsfan,

 

I made the following steps with DNG item in a shared catalog:

1. delete the Lightroom tag xmp:HierarchicalSubject with ExifTool

2. write "keyword_subject" with ExitTool into the xmp:subject

3. read the tags in Daminion

4. write new keyword "keyword_Daminion" with Daminion

5. now there is the new tag xmp:HierarchicalSubject and the existing tag xmp:subject with the same values: "keyword_subject, keyword_Daminion"

-> My conclusion: from this moment on your changes with Geosetter in the xmp:subject are substituted by the xmp:HierarchicalSubject by Daminion - because of the priority

-> my suggestion: if there wasn't a Lightroom Tag xmp:HierarchicalSubject before Daminion should not create it. It doesn't help if one works with LR, Geosetter and Daminion. In this case we need different keyword tags, at least one for xmp:subject and the other for xmp:HierarchicalSubject

 

Regards, Uwe

[Murat]

Daminion still writes keywords first into lr:hierarchicalSubject, correct? So any keywords I add using Daminion are written to that tag and not to dc:Subject, correct?

 

As Uwe said above Daminion writes keywords to all the metadata fields in the list for Writing. But it read only from one metadata field, according to its priority in the list for Reading.

 

 

[*]Import GPS data for folder using GPX import in Geosetter. This saves the location and GPS data into dc:Subject.

 

I don't know why GeoSetter writes GPS data to dc:Subject, because there are special fields in EXIF and XMP for this. Our RoboImport also has a GPX stamping tool but it writes GPS into the corresponding fields.

 

If removing lr:HierarchicalSubject helps retain the keywords from Geosetter and also continues to retain the Daminon added keywords I am willing to incorporate that into my workflow.

-> my suggestion: if there wasn't a Lightroom Tag xmp:HierarchicalSubject before Daminion should not create it. It doesn't help if one works with LR, Geosetter and Daminion. In this case we need different keyword tags, at least one for xmp:subject and the other for xmp:HierarchicalSubject

 

If you use GeoSetter just once to write info into XMP dc:subject, then removing XMP lr:HierarchicalSubject helps.

 

But, even if you don't use LR anymore, Daminion will writes lr:HierarchicalSubject into the images again while writing tags to the metadata. So my suggestion:

- Remove lr:HierarchicalSubject from your files (if this info is duplicated in dc:Subject, overwise you will lost keywords in lr:HierarchicalSubject) by ExifTool:

 

exiftool -lr:HierarchicalSubject= DIR

 

- Or copy dc:Subject to lr:HierarchicalSubject by ExifTool:

exiftool "-XMP-lr:HierarchicalSubject<XMP-dc:Subject" DIR

 

- Write the necessary info to dc:Subject by GeoSetter

 

- Import the files with information written to the files by GeoSetter to Daminion

[kingsfan]

Thanks. I will try this over the weekend.

[kingsfan]

Hi,

Which build can I test out the aforementioned workflow on? Has build 679 put dc-subject as a lower priority again so I can test against that?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Murat]

Which build can I test out the aforementioned workflow on? Has build 679 put dc-subject as a lower priority again so I can test against that?

 

In the latest 679 build: the "lr:HierarchicalSubject" field has higher priority than "dc-subject".