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Very fine pice of software, but color management ?


_noel_
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Hello,

 

I'm using IdImager up to now as my DAM application, but as IdImager seems not to be developed any more, I'm testing other DAM applications.

The best I've found so far is Daminion - kudos to the developers for such a fine pice of software !

 

One thing I'm missing so sadly is true color management.

I'm using a hardware calibrated NEC MultiSync PA301W (OS: Win7/64), which can bring out nearly the whole AdobeRgb colors, but my images in Daminion look like candy-colors - see the attached screenshot image: the left one is captured from Daminion (false oversaturated colors), the right one is ok (captured from color managed Photo Mechanic).

 

post-925-0-22654400-1346258348_thumb.jpg

 

Is there a chance to get color management right with Daminion ?

 

I pray for it, Daminion is one of the best DAM softwares: it is pure management of images without bells and whistles, no RAW converter with halfthearted EXIF/IPTC/XMP stuff like others do.

The UI is smoth and catchy, the performance is ok, the filter and tagging possibilites are very good!

But the color management is indispensable for me.

 

Regards

Eberhard

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Hi Noel,

 

Thanks for kind words. Daminion supports basic color management in JPEG files and a few other media formats. It's switched on by default (no option to turn it off).

 

Could you please send me your image file to support at daminion [dt] net for testing?

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The problem with color management with your NEF file is because the

JPEG preview doesn't contain information about a color profile. For

example if you copy the JPEG preview that I've sent to your email to a new

location and open them by View/Capture NX you will see an image with "poor" colors.

 

I've extracted it by DCRAW command line:

dcraw -e 111228_07_7181.nef

 

And even worse the original NEF file contains information about sRGB in it's

XMP:ICCProfile section along with Adobe RGB info in ICCProfile section.

To check this you can open it by any text editor (for ex Total Commander Text Viewer) and

locate a text with "sRGB" entries.

 

So there is a conflict between ICC Profiles.

 

To resolve this issue we can use Color Profile from RAW File info if no

color profile is found in JPEG Preview. Although it's not obvious

which color profile has what priority: ICCProfile or XMP:ICCProfile.

 

There is also a minor issue with our image processing library that

permits us to use custom color profiles. But I'll reported the library

developer company about an issue and hope to receive a fixed version soon.

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Thanks for your analysis!

 

I suspect that is the missing color profile in the embedded JPG of the NEF raw file is Nikon default (and also for other raw files).

Therefore most of imaging applications have a config item, where the use can choose a "Default ICC profile":

 

Photo Mechanic: Edit -> Preferences -> Color Management : Default ICC profile if undetermined

 

Nikon ViewNX2: (sorry, I have a German version) Edit -> Options -> Color Management:

Profil für den Arbeitsfarbraum

Standard RGB Profil -> choice with all installed profiles

checkbox: When opening images use this profile instead of the embedded profile

 

IdImager has a config dialog, where you can choose the in input and monitor profile

 

see attachments: post-925-0-24792000-1346945212_thumb.png post-925-0-93947600-1346945227_thumb.png post-925-0-36132400-1346945240_thumb.png post-925-0-10682300-1346945250_thumb.png

 

All these applications therefore do not have any problems with missing info about color profiles in images.

 

I have investigated, that my main problem with Daminion is my calibrated wide gamut monitor (see first post of this thread): Daminion does not use the Win7 configured default display profile (see last attachment above), which leads to ugly oversaturated candy colors. This effect can also be seen on such displays with web browsers, which do not use color management respectively the configured display profile (Firefox luckily does). I've found out, that this is my main problem with daminion.

 

In my humble opinion it would be very nice, when Daminion

 

1) would use the default Win7 display color profile or would implement a config item, where the user can choose one

2) would implement a config item, where the user can choose a "Default ICC" profile, if there is no profile given in an image and also a checkbox, if the selected default profile should always be used (e.g. like Photo Mechanic)

 

This would make Daminion an excellent all-purpose tool for image management! I hope and pray :-)

 

PS: the mixed or conflicting profiles in the NEF file have the following reason:

Shooting in sRGB / NEF

opening in Nikon Capture NX in AdobeRGB mode -> doing some changes -> store the NEF -> CNX updates the embedded JPG using AdobeRGB profile.

So you have a NEF / sRGB with an embedded JPG / AdobeRGB

Most aplications can handle this (IdImager, CNX, ViewNX, PhotoMechanic)

 

Regards

Eberhard

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1) would use the default Win7 display color profile or would implement a config item, where the user can choose one

2) would implement a config item, where the user can choose a "Default ICC" profile, if there is no profile given in an image and also a checkbox, if the selected default profile should always be used (e.g. like Photo Mechanic)

 

The first point can be implemented. But I am not sure whether using a single default profile to render all images without built-in profile will be convenient. Especially if an image archive contains a lot of photos from different photographers and sources. Probably analyzing a color-profile from the parent RAW image will be better solution :mda:

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1) would use the default Win7 display color profile or would implement a config item, where the user can choose one

2) would implement a config item, where the user can choose a "Default ICC" profile, if there is no profile given in an image and also a checkbox, if the selected default profile should always be used (e.g. like Photo Mechanic)

 

The first point can be implemented. But I am not sure whether using a single default profile to render all images without built-in profile will be convenient. Especially if an image archive contains a lot of photos from different photographers and sources. Probably analyzing a color-profile from the parent RAW image will be better solution :mda:

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The first point can be implemented. But I am not sure whether using a single default profile to render all images without built-in profile will be convenient. Especially if an image archive contains a lot of photos from different photographers and sources. Probably analyzing a color-profile from the parent RAW image will be better solution :mda:

 

We should not mix the monitor profile stuff, which is individual for the operating system Daminion is runnig on and the image color space information (sRGB, AdobeRGB, ...), which should be stored in the images.

 

For the first point Daminion still has to implement something, the second point seems already implemented by Daminion, if the images are "well designed" (maybe in future Daminion can do something for images, which are not so "well designed" :good: )

 

My immediate problem is the first one (Daminion handles the display / monitor profile). Can you give a timelime for this ?

 

kind regards & nice holidays

Eberhard

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Noel, some changes regarding color management are available in the 624 build.

 

This version also contains German localization. (as well as French, Polish and Russian)

 

Sorry for being a little late with my response, I was on a foto training in Tuscany last week :)

 

I've installed the 631 build and color management looks much better now! Kudos to the developers!

For JPGs with AdobeRGB and sRGB I now get the same results in the image viewer like e.g. Photo Mechanic.

But sadly for NEF files with AdobeRGB or sRGB CM still is not working, the images look dull and dark, maybe this will work in a later build?

Also the performance with CM switched on is ... hmmm ... how to say it very carefully: "not very overwhelming" ;-) but this is a story for future builds.

Additionally I have reproducable crashes of Daminion, when I navigate between images (JPGs & NEFs) in the viewer with the arrow keys (irrespective of CM switched on or off), also the speed is much slower than with older builds, even if CM is switched off.

Where can I find some log files or crash dumps I can send to you ?

 

Regards

Eberhard

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But sadly for NEF files with AdobeRGB or sRGB CM still is not working, the images look dull and dark, maybe this will work in a later build?

 

We've added support for display profile only. Support for correctly preview NEF files with AdobeRGB will be added later.

 

Also the performance with CM switched on is ... hmmm ... how to say it very carefully: "not very overwhelming" ;-) but this is a story for future builds.

 

yes, there is a room for future optimizations.

 

Additionally I have reproducable crashes of Daminion, when I navigate between images (JPGs & NEFs) in the viewer with the arrow keys (irrespective of CM switched on or off), also the speed is much slower than with older builds, even if CM is switched off.

Where can I find some log files or crash dumps I can send to you ?

 

I'll check this. To launch Daminion with enabling logs you need to launch it with -log_enable parameter from the command line. Then you can locate a folder with logs by pressing Ctrl + F12 keys. Btw, did you see any error message after crashing the program? Does the problem reproducable with JPEG files only?

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I'll check this. To launch Daminion with enabling logs you need to launch it with -log_enable parameter from the command line. Then you can locate a folder with logs by pressing Ctrl + F12 keys. Btw, did you see any error message after crashing the program? Does the problem reproducable with JPEG files only?

 

It occured both with seperate folders (one with NEFs and one with JPGs) after 2-3 images several times. Sometimes without detailed error message ("stopped working ..."), sometimes with the well known "debug" and "cancle" buttons (but on this machine I have no debugger installed) and once without any error message, the process just disappeared.

 

I'll switch on the "-log_enabled" parameter and try to reproduce the error, but it is sporadic.

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It occured both with seperate folders (one with NEFs and one with JPGs) after 2-3 images several times. Sometimes without detailed error message ("stopped working ..."), sometimes with the well known "debug" and "cancle" buttons (but on this machine I have no debugger installed) and once without any error message, the process just disappeared.

 

I'll switch on the "-log_enabled" parameter and try to reproduce the error, but it is sporadic.

 

Daminion crashed after about 15-20 images in viewer, but nothing conspicuous in the logfiles: 1.0.zip

 

Regards

Eberhard

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Does E:\ drive is a mapped network drive on your computer?

 

Did you see a windows system error message (with Details... button)?

 

- E:\ is a local drive (2 disks RAID1)

- no "Details" button, only "Daminion stopped working ... Looking for solution ..." and a "Cancel" button

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sometimes, when I was fast navigating between the images with my mouse scroll, there were a few crashes. But I managed to crash down acdsee and lightroom with this technique, too. :)

 

Perhaps some images are corrupted. If you launch Daminion with -log_enable key, and reproduce this issue again, you can locate the problematic files from Daminion log (Ctrl + F12 to locate it)

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Perhaps some images are corrupted. If you launch Daminion with -log_enable key, and reproduce this issue again, you can locate the problematic files from Daminion log (Ctrl + F12 to locate it)

 

When I look at those images they're just fine in full screen view, the problem only occurs when I'm fast navigating between the images, and always with other images.

 

But I will try it with the log enabled tonight, of course.

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